There were further revelations about Dee Dee at the 30 April, 2013, hearing. It appeared that Sybrina Fulton had pulled “the letter” out from her Bible at her deposition on March 26, 2012. It seems then Bernard de la Rionda knew of the document for a year before making it public. Also it appears that, if we apply Judge Nelson’s logic, this is not a discovery violation since it was eventually “cured” .
Another development was the revelation that “Francine”, the friend who helped Dee Dee write the “letter”, had accompanied her and de la Rionda to an interview with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
Also interesting was that there appeared to be another written document in addition to the one kept in Sybrina Fulton’s Bible.
This brings us to the telephone interview between Dee Dee and Benjamin Crump. Between the written statement or statements and the Crump interview there was probably at least one recorded interview. The submission from Pam Bondi’s refers to a previous recording. The following analysis is based on the transcript prepared by a FaceBook group at www.facebook.com/GzVsTmDebateCenter. Quotations are from this transcript.
The transcript is based on audio files from the GZ Legal case site as follows:
and the ABC Clip:
There were several people in the same room as Crump: Sybrina Fulton, Tracy Martin, Jahvaris Fulton, Trayvon’s half-brother, an aunt of Trayvon’s, a cousin of Trayvon’s, the ABC reporter Matt Gutman and his assistant Seni Tienabeso.
It is not certain who, if anyone, was in the room with Dee Dee but it would be most surprising if “Francine” and Dee Dee’s mother were not there.
The Crump Interview
1. From the Store to an Apartment
The beginning of this version of the Narrative in clip 2 of the Crump interview is fairly simple. It goes like this:
- Trayvon Martin went to the corner store to buy candy (unspecified) and Arizona (an unspecified drink) for his “brother” because there was no food in the house.
- On the way back it started to rain hard so he went to a “little apartment” or “speck thing” to shelter.
- When it was no longer raining so hard he noticed a man looking at him.
- TM put his hoodie on because it was still raining a bit.
- TM was going to “run from the back because this man was watching him and stuff”
Then Crump interrupts and after a pause the narrative starts again.
Up to this point there is nothing to indicate whether Zimmerman was in a vehicle or on foot and no mention of mailboxes. It also seems that Trayvon had taken his hood down while sheltering from the rain and that it was still down when Zimmerman started watching him. Trayvon then put his hood back up because it was still raining a little bit.
It seems a bit strange that TM should tell a friend over the phone that he was putting his hoodie on (presumably putting the hood up) and that it was raining. The point of this may be to demonstrate that Trayvon’s motives for wearing the hoodie were entirely innocent or that Zimmerman was lying on the call to the police Non Emergency Number when he said that Trayvon was walking in the rain.
2. From the Store to an Apartment Revised
After starting again, Dee Dee comes to Trayvon leaving the store. “So when he was walking out of the store, and then it started raining hard. So he run from um a plaza. Not a plaza but uh an apartment, another apartment.” This time Dee Dee definitely settles on an apartment as the place where Trayvon took shelter.
This is difficult to interpret but it might mean that after leaving the store it started raining and then Trayvon went for shelter at an “apartment”, presumably meaning a townhouse or some other kind of building. If that is the case, it would mean that when Dee Dee appears to say “from” somewhere she means “for” somewhere, that is to somewhere. Running from the back would mean running to the back (back gate, back door of Brandy Green’s townhouse?)
Dee Dee then adds a new detail about Zimmerman, that he was on the phone while he was watching Trayvon. She says that Trayvon put his jacket on because it was raining a little bit. Note that this is one of two occasions during the Crump interview that Dee Dee refers to “Tray” rather than Trayvon, something that she never did in the deposition with the prosecution. Is this perhaps because Sybrina Fulton was not sitting beside her? Once again she has Trayvon “running from the back”.
3. Running from the Back
So, having started again after being interrupted by Crump, Dee Dee adds that Zimmerman was on the phone while watching Trayvon.
Dee Dee continues with the narrative. She says that Trayvon “ran from the back” and that he was trying unsuccessfully to lose Zimmerman. She told Trayvon to go home. Trayvon said he was almost home. He said the man was close to him and “illegally” following him. Then she says “ (S)o he, Trayvon said the man he look like he about to beat him. And I say Trayvon go home. He said he all…was by his house. I like OK run to your house. Trayvon say he ain’t going to run. So Trayvon like walk. I said walk faster. He say he walking faster but the man walking faster. “
This would appear to mean Trayvon was running and that presumably Zimmerman was running as fast or faster. Trayvon was almost home and Zimmerman was looking like he was going to beat him . Dee Dee says that she told Trayvon to run and that Trayvon said he was near home. Dee Dee told him again to run to his house. Then Trayvon was walking. Dee Dee told him to walk faster. Trayvon said he was walking fast but the man was walking faster.
This seems rather implausible. Trayvon was running at first but when he was near his father’s house he started walking. Zimmerman was apparently running as fast as Trayvon, which seems unlikely, and then walking but walking faster than Trayvon, which again seems unlikely.
It also seems strange that if Trayvon had said that Zimmerman looked as though he was going to beat him he would then start walking rather than running.
Is it possible that Trayvon had said that he was going to beat Zimmerman and that Dee Dee had told him to run home instead?
The reference to “illegally following” seems unlikely to have come from Trayvon. It is more probable that it was inserted into the narrative by Crump or one of his associates.
4. The Confrontation
Then Dee Dee describes what she heard of the exchange between Zimmerman and Trayvon.
Trayvon said “Why you following me for?”
Zimmerman replied “What you talking about?”
Dee Dee then describes what might be the start of a physical confrontation:
“and then like the next thing I hear um like someone like, someone pushed Trayvon pushed Trayvon on the ground cause Trayvon had a headset um, on his ear and then if his headset is (unintelligible)”
Then the phone shuts down:
“and I tell Trayvon go go home go home and I’m like (unintelligible) and then I don’t like know what happened, the phone just shut off.”
5. The Confrontation Revised
Crump interrupts again and says:
“Ok. I’m a I’m a hold for a second. I just want to ask the part about…the alt… when you say you heard the other person yeah, you know like you told Mr. Tracy and Ms. Sybrina this when you say he loud it was like what you doing in here and stuff and”
Crump is apparently referring to an earlier version of the narrative as told to Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton in which Zimmerman says “what you doing in here” not “what you talking about.” That Dee Dee had already given an account to Martin and Fulton seems to contradict statements by Crump, Martin and Fulton that they had not discussed Dee Dee’s testimony in detail. So did the “what are you talking about” come from this version?
Dee Dee, as instructed, continues with the amended exchange between Trayvon and Zimmerman:
“ And the man come said “What you doing around here?” And then, the man, Trayvon come ask him “Why you following me for?” And the man said “What you doing around here”
This time it is Zimmerman who is supposed to begin the exchange and he now says “what are you doing here?”
So, after interruption by Crump, Dee Dee has a different version of Zimmerman’s’s utterance, one that is more aggressive and does not have him denying that he was following Trayvon.
She continues “(T)he next thing I hear like it look like like pushed Trayvon on the floor cause his headset like fell. And then”
6. Losing the Man
Crump makes a third interruption and asks Dee Dee to start again but to describe how Trayvon said “I thought I lost him and then he caught up” and also to say that she told Trayvon to run home. In this interview so far Dee Dee has not said that Trayvon said he had lost or thought he had lost Zimmerman. She said that he tried to lose him but the man “was really following him”.
Dee Dee says “No” [to what?] but then continues: “ Trayvon yeah, I told Trayvon to run home cause after he said he had lost him, cause Trayvon told me he ain’t gonna run for it.”
So now Dee Dee says that Trayvon had in fact said he lost Zimmerman and it was then that she told Trayvon to run home. Dee Dee resumes the narrative:
“ Trayvon had run for it. And then the man… And then he said he lost the man. And then the man come… and then Trayvon say the man was still following him. And then eh, Trayvon I asked him to run. And Trayvon said he ain’t gonna run like that. He was gonna walk fast….. from the back. And the man was just following him close like walk walking to him like fast. Like when Trayvon was walking fast, he was walking faster following him. Like he getting close by him. He getting close by him. I say, “Run.” And Trayvon say he not going to run”.
7. The Confrontation Revised Again
Dee Dee reaches the confrontation again.
“And then…. next thing I knew Trayvon say, What “What you uh following me for?” And the man, “What you doing around here?” Next thing I hear somebody pushed, I know somebody push Trayvon because the headset just fell. And then after that I couldn’t talk to him because the phone just shut off. And I called him again and he not answer the phone. “
So, the narrative now goes like this. Trayvon eluded Zimmerman. But Zimmerman found him again and was getting closer. Dee Dee told Trayvon to run. TM said he was not going to run. Then there is the exchange between Zimmerman and Trayvon, this time with Trayvon speaking first.
Dee Dee says that she heard somebody push, then corrects this to saying that she knows somebody pushed Trayvon. How does she know this? Because the headset fell. How does she know the headset fell?
Crump then asks Dee Dee “(D)id, Did you, did you know that, um, did you after the phone went dead the last thing he heard was he asked Trayvon again what he was doing there? “
Dee Dee says “What are you doin’ around here?”
Crump says “What are you doin’ around here?”
An unknown male says “ OK “
Dee Dee says “ He said to Trayvon “What you talking about” and he tried to explain himself and then he pushed…”
Despite Crump’s encouragement to say that Trayvon said that Zimmerman said what are yiou doing Dee Dee again says that Zimmerman said what are talking about. Is it possible that this is what she actually thought she heard over the phone?
Also, Zimmerman is said to have tried to explain himself, which is not in Zimmerman’s account or any other by Dee Dee.
Then the Unknown Male says “ K”
Notice that Crump is at pains to establish that the last thing Zimmerman says is “what are you doing around her?” but Dee Dee continues to say that Zimmerman said “what are you talking about” . The second time Crump does not argue but continues to the next issue.
8. Zimmerman’s Behavior and Trayvon’s Emotions
So far Dee Dee has said nothing about Trayvon’s emotions nor has she reported that Trayvon described Zimmerman in any way. Crump elicits from Dee Dee that Trayvon sounded scared and that he had described Zimmerman as big, white and angry. How Trayvon came to the conclusion when Zimmerman was at least three inches shorter than him and more Mestizo than Caucasian in facial appearance is not explained.
Crump then elicits that Trayvon was “real happy” most of the day and that she found out he had been shot the next day.
Then Crump for the first time in this interview introduces the information that Zimmerman was in a vehicle. This had not been mentioned previously.
“So, at some point when he was following him in the car, and Trayvon was trying to see who this guy was following him in the car, apparently the, the Zimmerman man was on the phone with the police. And so, between that call and your call we pretty much have a lot of audio of what took place.
Dee Dee responds to the prompt.
“ I know when Trayvon I told him when you were uh walking from the (unintelligible) house, um to get to the girlfriend’s house, he like told me he knew this dude was on the phone with somebody so he was about to make a run for it so, from the back. Cause somebody was following him very close with the car, with a car, I think in a car. “
9. Trayvon’s character
Dee Dee then discusses Trayvon’s character: “In this situation in this here case, mainly it’s a racial. To tell you the truth. It is a racial. I mean Tray was an innocent boy. Just because he had a hoodie on. (Unintelligble) They talk like he was a bad boy but he ain’t. He was a fun boy. And he was changing life and he was doing good. “
” He was trying to finish school (Unintelligible) and get an MBA and stuff.”
It is unlikely that Dee Dee came up with this by herself.
10. Crump’s Summary
Then there is this from Crump: “And when you talk to your mother, if at any point, uh, you know after a little while, where you say you uh, come on and we, your face will be grayed out and stuff, it’s one thing to hear it’s another thing to just see any kind of image uh, and you tell that story just like you told us earlier today which just put it in perspective for us. He was just trying to get home uh, and it started raining. Is that pretty… that’s pretty accurate?”
Crump is referring to a mother here but in his announcement to the press he refers to “parents.” He then seems to be trying to persuade Dee Dee to appear on TV with her face blurred, something which has not yet happened.
11. After the Shooting
Then the interview moves to the time after the shooting. Dee Dee says that she called TM but could not get through. Trayvon did not reply. Dee Dee was apparently not concerned because she thought it was a fight. Apparently not being able to contact TM after a fight did not lead her to notify anyone.
She heard about TM being shot the next day.
“ I was in shock. I was really in shock. Hmmm, my feelings are cause I just like he didn’t do nothing. He was just gonna to get his little brother a little skittle and an Arizona iced tea, that’s it.”
Notice that candy has become “ a little skittle” and the unspecified Arizona has become “Arizona iced tea”, which she could not have heard from Trayvon who had purchased Arizona watermelon fruit juice cocktail.
Dee Dee supposedly was in shock on the following Friday and was therefore unable to go to the wake. She did not go to school that day. Her mother took her to the hospital a t 2 o’ clock (she does not say whether afternoon or morning). She spent the night in hospital and was in hospital the next day. She was sick because she was the last person talking to him, which she realised only on Friday.
Dee Dee has now admitted that she lied about going to the hospital.
12. Summary of the Crump Interview
During the course of the Crump interview the following changes are made to the narrative:
- Zimmerman was on the phone while he was watching.
- Zmmerman was in a car at some point.
- Zimmerman was big, white and angry.
- Zimmerman eluded or thought he had eluded Zimmerman. This is a partial return to the written document where Zimmerman at one point is not following Trayvon but it is not clear why.
- Dee Dee alternates between Zimmerman saying he does not know what TM is talking about and demanding to know what TM was doing there. Her last version in this interview is what are you talking about. But later it is again what are you doing here.
- The drink and candy have become iced tea and skittles.
The narrative has now acquired much more substance and it appears that this was at the initiative of Crump and others. There is still nothing that clearly indicates who was the initiator of a physical confrontation.